I just was very, very impressed with how deep our guest, Ray Deck of State Change, has gone into thinking about what technology is doing to a lot of the different types of companies we’ve become familiar with over the past 5, 10 years and how that’s rapidly changing now and sort of the type of things that allow that technology is allowing us to work with is also going to be rapidly changing. So I’ve been following a lot of his work online. He has a great YouTube channel for State Change, a lot of other great resources, and just realizing I’m way over my head and wanting to kind of talk to him and get a little bit closer into a better understanding of what’s going on. So in that preamble, Ray, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Ray Deck:
Thank you, A.J. It’s a delight to be here.

A.J. Lawrence:
No, I mean it’s a lot of fun because like I said, I really enjoyed when we chatted previously. You’re playing at a wonderful level in what’s going on in this world right now. One level, it’s a new toy every day. But it’s also the realization that wondering if we’re going to become the puppies in a year or two, and maybe not a year or two but soon enough where hopefully we’re content and we get our belly rubbed every once in a while. But everything that we consider of value, of generating whatever is rapidly changing in what we do. But before we get into that and go too deep into this, can you kind of share a little bit with the audience just your own entrepreneurial journey? Because I was going through you had some work for some great startups. You were partners in different things. You’ve done some really cool things here.

Ray Deck:
Thank you. I’ve been doing the software startups either as a primary founder, as the CTO, or as an advisor investor for the last 25 years, which sounds like a very long time when I say that out loud. Originally, I went to school for political science of all things. I fell in with some of the people who would become the pioneers of a science that would call data science. People like Ed Tufte at Yale and really became plugged into what they were doing, applying more quantitative discipline to a previously non-quantitative subject and sort of left with that idea of like how do I apply not just computers but really data being more quantitative to these. These are disciplines. And then I went into management consulting and the management consultants immediately put me to work because one thing you can do with young persons, give them more quantitative work and like wait, you can do databases, what have you. This became a launchpad and discovered along the way that I really enjoyed the technology. I saw the equity opportunity for it. I wanted to be part of building something rather than just renting out my brain, at least at the time. And so I first joined a healthcare startup which was a wonderful experience for a couple years. Then I hung out my own shingle and I just heard an alt building either a service company to a product company to a service company to product company, you know, repeatedly over the course of my career and trying to figure out like where’s the money in the technology and sort of started all this right around ’99. Sort of big run up to the dot-com boom and then sort of have seen the crash of 2002, seen the rise of user generated content, seen the crash of 2008, lived through it, scarred for it and then seen the world of SaaS, which is really sort of game ascendant.

I would say after 2000, it had a lot to do with the macroeconomic environment for interest rates. And then the post pandemic move. And the question I’ve tried to ask, and I’ve been asking more actively in the course of the last several months is what’s really different right now versus what happened before? Because I’ve seen the ways there are certain things that keep on seeming like they change all the time and then there are certain things that are more eternally true or maybe sort of on that secular upward trajectory. So what is increasing in value? What is more valuable? And like how is know 2025 different from say 2021? And by looking at that issue of both level and change, be able to make better investment decisions, kind of sort of evolve from being the operator founder to being a leader founder, to being more of a, forgive me, an investor type founder, right? Where I’m thinking about how I’m putting my time and my capital to work to create really outsized results. And as I sort of have climbed the curve, that means sort of trying to be more researchy, more of a student of the market in order to figure where to lay the bets and where to allocate one’s time.

A.J. Lawrence:
How are you seeing things evolve before we kind of get into what you are seeing? I basically went from one digital services firm to the next in the dot-com crash where each one kind of was treating itself like it was a pure technology company when it was really just a glorified “You want another web page?” It’s just like one fault, one and out. Then as you said, the 2008, that kind of run up because I was in services. What was nice was we were able to pivot to more traditional companies and did well. But seeing that sort of like greed, that repeat of oh well this time it’s different, that seems very common to what’s happening except there’s also this bit of like, oh, I’ve never seen anything like this before. And people are really trying to watch what’s happening. Like this is really just different. I would love to kind of, as you’re putting your framework in place, what are you kind of seeing this transition and what are you seeing similar and how is this different for you?

Ray Deck:
There are a couple things that are different. There’s a wonderful book by Peter Drucker who’s sort of a guru of management. He wrote actually a great book on entrepreneurship and he talked about like three major sources of entrepreneurial opportunity. He talks about changes in demographics, changes in how society interacts with technology or perceives things, and actually new technology that’s come about. And I think when you sort of look back, you sort of see changes in all three of those things happening. Like in 2025, the average person at the peak of their career, who is of course younger than the two of us, peak of their career, has had an iPhone in their pocket for their entire adult lives. Their relationship with technology is fundamentally different than someone who’s even 10 years older than them so their attitude towards technology is different. Someone who is more senior in their career now probably took some degree of coding when they were in college. I can’t tell you how many people I run into who say I did code back when I was in school, but that’s not what I do for a living anymore. Right? That was back then, but I don’t do code now.

But then you ask what they were doing. They were doing JavaScript or doing Python. They’re doing the same languages that are like really premiere now. They were using same technologies that came into being say 10 or 15 years ago when they could have been trained in school. And now when they look at it again, it looks much more familiar than it would to someone who went to school say 10 years before that and were learning say Java maybe in an introductory computer science course or something that was going to be much harder to work with. And then they never saw again in the course of their careers because it didn’t look like anything they used.

And then the third part is the tools are really changing. Right? The way software gets built is remarkably different today than it was before. And this kind of gets like the whole AI thing being very exciting because AI, like any other technology, is a lever. It provides a lever on your expertise. And so as people have a rough idea of how a computer maybe should think, are able to make a lot more use of that and they can create software without having to learn all the code. They can express their will. And that’s what’s really exciting. I think about like low code tools that have been out there for like 20 years but the demographics and attitude towards technology has also caught up even as the quality of the tooling has gone up. And that’s made this more than linear opportunity for people who are just experts in their field to express themselves not just through personal services and not just through like making content, writing a book or something, but also being able to express themselves through the creation of software that starts to solve some of these problems for their clients, right, through automation. And those three things, consulting code and content and code, allow someone to make a lot more money if they’re really the expert.

So people who are just kind of the duffers in the space, people who are maybe at the second tier of what they do, they are threatened because now that person who at the peak can get more leverage on their time and be able to make a whole lot more money in the market. This is a classic thing of technology breeds inequality. But what that means is that people who have a lot of domain expertise have an opportunity to really get more leverage out of that and create a lot more wealth with it, as opposed to previously it would have been only if you also had a whole lot of coding skills and had significant training or what have you, which is kind of the thesis behind a lot of the SaaS movement of say 10 or 15 years ago, right?

Like the Rob Walling stuff or Y Combinator, which all have the theory of if you are a technologist, you can probably bring yourself into business now with increasing quality of the tools. And the fact that the same business experts have that demographic shift, that they have some degree of comfort with the technology means that you could be a domain expert and then bring the technology to it. And that sort of shifts who can make money in this market in a pretty interesting way. And I found that sort of be a big change in the market opportunity that gets expressed both in the visual tools. Classically, when we think about no code, you’re thinking about drawing things with boxes and arrows and having a canvas on the screen. That’s fine. That’s really been the state of the art, I think, for the last maybe 20 years. And then what’s really changed drastically, and I would say has changed a lot just in the course of the last four or five months, has been that the AI technology. Natural language AI, which was nowhere if we were having this conversation say eight years ago, seven years ago. It was all about computer vision. It wasn’t about natural language, but natural language technology has gotten so good that it can write computer code. And if you can express yourself in a way that’s close enough to how the machine expresses itself and you can like give it a screenshot, what have you, it could get you a really far along in how much of the work gets done. And then you can work with it iteratively to dial in what you’re looking for. This is the thesis behind the so called Vibe coding, which I think is a sort of a silly way of describing it. But the idea of you can express yourself using these visual tools and you can express yourself using natural language, none of which requires you to have to learn the arcane code, but you probably have some memory of that code anyway which is giving you some mental models to allow you to be more successful with it is what is makes all that bridge between where you are and the product that you could put into the market much, much shorter. And that’s I think, where the value gets unlocked.

A.J. Lawrence:
What was it just recently Y Combinator came out and everyone was kind of shocked, forgetting the stats. But a good portion of their whatever the latest cohort, 90% of their code is AI generated and it’s growing even faster. Yes, there will be tech debt and all that. If anything, science has to scale. But for the basic concept of theirs, which is you’re just trying to see if there is a market, guess what, this has changed how you can go. And what I was thinking about as I saw that was I don’t want to kind of call out this one entrepreneur that we had sort of invested in. So I won’t bring up his name and we’ll just kind of, we can call him Bob. Hey Bob. The value was in sort of what he knew and what he represented it. And that’s kind of poorly paraphrasing what you’re saying, but sort of the cred he brought to the situation. I think a lot of these tools kind of leverage that even further. We’ve had over the past five plus years, the growth of the audience. First entrepreneur, you have to understand the need and you have to understand an audience. And if you can bring those two together, it feels like the tools give you all the more chance to explore a market opportunity.

Ray Deck:
I think that’s totally right. The framework that I teach people over at State Change and that I’ve also put into the videos I have on the YouTube too. I talk about knowledge, reputation and wealth as being the three big assets of an intellectual entrepreneur or an intellectual company. It’s like what do you know? And technical knowledge matters in that too, like your ability to create code or what have you that can give you a longer lever. But like domain knowledge matters so much more for that and like what are you bringing to that. And then how much reputation do you have? How deeply do people trust you? And how many people trust you determines your ability to distribute that right to them. And to your point, the tools give us a longer lever to be able to serve more of those people as opposed to classically it was if you’re going to elevate your business, you’re just looking to serve just the cream of the crop, maybe the wealthiest of the clients or the largest the companies or what have you normal make your money. If you express yourself through software, you can serve a much wider audience and be able to help a whole lot more people, create a lot more value in the market and therefore also be able to capture more wealth as a result. And that can be far more money making. And that’s kind of what I’m looking for is like what allows people to use technology as a magnifier for their knowledge and their reputation. I think one of the challenges like we were talking about with any of these companies is they focus too much on the technical knowledge and not enough on business side or very importantly the reputation part. There’s nothing to work the lever with. You need a fulcrum too.

A.J. Lawrence:
How do you kind of work within State Change for people to kind of better understand what they do know and how to utilize that?

Ray Deck:
A lot of this is what other people say about you. I find that to be a really helpful way to find out what you know. The kinds of thing I find myself doing and helping people do is really getting three things right. So one is working more to think like a software developer in terms of the building of their business. And there’s Seymour Papert did a lot of work around technology education theory back in like 1980s or 1970s, 1980s. A neat thing is he kept on talking about how none of his ideas could work with the technology he had at the time, that it would take more friendly, better graphics, better responsiveness in order for it to work. But he talked about the importance of this idea that comes in when you’re a software developer, which I’ve learned over time.

Like I said, I started with political science and then eventually came more into tech. But the idea of a debugger’s mindset and the idea of being iterative and there’s a challenge I think for a lot of people, particularly as they get like you say in that mid-journey phase where you’re coming out of being told what to do and you’re not yet at the level of at least seeing yourself as having mastery. You probably do. You’re probably pretty close to it. But there is a phase you get to when you have enough confidence in your knowledge, you start trying things. And a debugger’s mindset is about being willing to experiment and being able to then leap forward. It’s not just like I’m supposed to have the answer, it’s what’s the question? Let’s go into the undiscovered country and find out what the right answer is going to be. And this is something that you see in software all the time because we get ourselves to a point where we can’t hold the whole thing in our head, right? It’s not like doing an arithmetic problem. It’s like this big piece of code that’s quite complicated in terms of its paths, how do we understand it? By experiencing it and then dialing back around. Now, the reason I bring this up is that this applies both to writing software using any of these tools we just described. Also applies to, I think that the building of one’s business, and that’s how you kind of crack that ceiling is being willing to try things that you don’t know are going to succeed. I need to just be improving and dialing in the quality of it. That’s like just getting the machine running. But the way that really achieves liftoff is through going where others haven’t gone and being able to get out of just the competitive mode. And that debugger’s mindset, I find, helps people both thinking about business but also once you start doing that, you start thinking about systems and you start thinking about how you can be expressing more of this in the form of software. So not just, hey, how do I hire more people? But wait, a machine could do this and you start imagining what could happen. And if you’re in the imagination business, now, you really look like an entrepreneur.

A.J. Lawrence:
And it’s actually really interesting the way you say that, because to be able to experiment, you actually have to have your business in a strong enough position already. Experimentation is the path to growth but you need to have a core business that actually provides your ability to fund the extra cycles. If it’s you, you either sleep less or whatever. Looking at the tools that are coming out, it feels like you can experiment so much less and you can create a stronger foundation just by a couple of conversations. Either how many people someone would have based on their business model, where they were in revenue, whatever the tools. Now I can look at the same type business four different ways and it’s usually the only thing I can kind of guess is based upon the age of the person. The older person I’m like, you’re probably doing this a little more traditional and you probably have 4.5 people per million dollars of type of business. You probably have this many. You probably have the traditional bottlenecks. Okay, they built something, they brought this, they’re utilizing tools. Now, how are you helping people re-recognize what the reputation can do through this experimentation?

Ray Deck:
What I have been doing particularly like in the consulting work that I’ve been doing lately as well as a lot of the sort of startup advisory work is really encouraging them to make content and get it out into the world. A lot of my credibility comes from the technology part, right? Because people know me for the technology part and I’ve got the office hours, what have you, that’s helped people make progress with that. But it’s also about getting people to have enough confidence in what they’re doing in the ideas they have. Because all the software stuff is about expressing your ideas through software, but you can also express those ideas through content. And the wonderful thing that people who have been in the professional services industry know is that when you put your best ideas into content and you just put them out into the market, people will be attracted to them and they’ll be attracted to you as a result. And then they are looking for things to buy from you. They say, oh, wait, that person, I now have some degree of trust in that. I’ve learned something. I’m smarter. I believe in this. Maybe I’ve even able to make a little bit of progress on my own as a result of hearing that idea. But if I could work with that person, I could get even more out of it. And this is a classic move for a lot of professional service organizations. Like when you have like the McKinsey Quarterly and you read the McKinsey Quarterly and then oh wait, now I want to go work with McKinsey & Company, right? The ideas that you have are the same ideas are causing you to say there’s an opportunity in software, and so you just give it away.

What I found is that a lot of people are they’re simultaneously afraid that someone else is going to steal it and they’re afraid that their idea isn’t really worth listening to. And those two ideas really can’t be true at the same time. And I find that both of them are really misplaced. Other people might or might not steal your idea, but the value isn’t in the idea. The value is in your credibility and your expertise that surrounds the idea. And this is why I say you go and create content. I encourage video, I encourage writing. I’m a big fan of Blair Enns’ idea that like that writing and publishing is like the absolute best way to win business. And it’s not sufficient for all of business, but oh my goodness. If you have one hour to spend on marketing, I’m a big believer that content marketing and building your personal brand to be the absolutely most powerful way of doing it. Then if you do that, you have more of a network to sell to. And those people are primed. They want to buy this from you and they want to buy the things related to those ideas from you. Right? So if you are a font of, as you put it, useless cultural knowledge, but you’re trying to sell building mathematical models, those two things aren’t quite in line, right?

So I snowboard regularly and I do my shorts from the ski lift. I find that when you do that, you get to play uneasy. You create more understanding and then that creates a dialogue also with the market. You were asking like, how do people know what they know? How do they know what’s valuable? They get the feedback from the market. Oh, wait, hey, that was a good idea. And that’s creating a positive reinforcement loop that then can guide their build. The line I’m often talking about is like what’s the hardest 5%? And really, what’s the 5% that matters? You mentioned before, like 90% of code being written by AI for at least the last decade, 90 plus percent of software wasn’t written at all. You’re going to use this huge network of packages that are available to you and you’re just going to compose them together and they’re going to run underneath you. What we’re doing is we’re taking the remaining 10% and we’re cutting sharply into that through saying there’s another thinner, much thinner than the packages layer, layer of AI that’s going on top of that. And then you’re able to orchestrate that even more finely. So the lever is getting longer. It’s a difference in degree, I would argue, not really in kind. And as that lever gets longer, it becomes even more important that that last layer that you’re bringing over the top is high value. And the high value part of that isn’t about being weirdly technical, unless what you’re doing is weirdly technical. It’s going to be about like what is that reflects your best ideas and your best expertise and manifested that in software. And then allowing the AI and allowing the preexisting package layer whatever to be doing the rest of that. And that’s the long lever that allows you to really create a lot of value from little old you as opposed to being limited to the number of people who you can help on a one-on-one basis.

A.J. Lawrence:
With State Change now you have someone in there, you have thousands of hours of dealing with different problems within it. The content from the office hours from other pieces, are you in a sense becoming part of that? You kind of come and deal with your problems.

Ray Deck:
I think that it’s kind of relates to the new way that we can use labor. I mean, you had someone on your podcast recently talking about accessing labor from the global labor market. The reason I bring up the idea of the global labor market is that it also brings up the idea of you can bring in just the right piece of labor at these various points. Thesis was that in order for you to have software in your organization, you need to hire someone or a team or what have you that do software for your organization. But now if more of that’s sitting in your head or sitting in the heads of the business people in your organization and you’re able to get more leverage with the tools than about having just a little bit of help with like the part that’s still weird technical alien, because machines are not people, being able to then cross that divide. And that’s kind of what State Change is about in terms of the services it provides, but also gets to how can we train a smarter AI not just on lots of code, that is code that people have written, but like how do you solve problems?

The other half of State Change is that one, we’re helping people. Second, we’re creating a content library where people can like see other problems have been solved and be able to see those mental models for it. But really it’s about the expression of mental model, that debugger’s mindset that then can be potentially re-applied back into the tooling to be able to then re-express that in form of software. So like in addition, sauce for the goose is also for the gander. Right? So I’m also looking at how this same kind of expertise and reputation applied first as service and then as content, can then through the lens of using AI technology also get then applied as product. And I think we’re going to see all sorts of creative and wonderful ways people are using this newer tech to create that kind of way to express value without requiring marginal time on their part. I’m seeing people using AI for being able to pull data from unstructured data. Like people have lots of notes, being able to take like your notes from hither, thither and yon and like get them into a CRM so that instead of you figuring out how to do the data entry into it, it’s just sort of getting in right. So that’s that idea of being able to give you access to your information through their insight of well, usually when people write notes like this, it sort of means this and if you will, it’s basically about code as prompt.

They don’t need to be learning how to be doing Python or whatever. It’s like, how do you coax chatgpt into figuring out what this document really means in a way that is going to be useful for your business? And that itself, that whispering aspect becomes really interest. I was actually hosting a founder today on State Change. We have a weekly guest lecture series and about half the time it’s an internal member talking about their own business. And his business is building a professional social network specifically for people in the film industry. The speed at which he’s been able to develop it and the doing it without having raised any capital has been remarkable. He has a very small team putting that together and making use both of the low code tools that allows them to build stuff faster, making use of a global labor market because he actually has a few developers who are working with Nigeria and making use of AI in a remarkably inexpensive way to be able to do tagging, create relationships that allow him to build a really useful professional social graph in a way that is specifically for that domain. And now he’s using his credibility within that domain, because he is like an indie movie producer, to be able to bring this value into the market.

Another one is a guy who used to do financial analysis for a number of PE companies and he’s building a leveraged buyout analyzer. So basically when private equity companies are looking at doing one of these highly financed, highly leveraged transactions in HLT, they need to get their numbers right and what needs to be true in order for this to work and being able to get that data in and be able to get it processed iteratively. Oh, well, what happens, we adjust this number. How well does that work? What does that mean for the thing? What if we introduce this instrument? Well, instead of having be a couple of days, it can just be a snap of a finger because you’re just waiting for the thing to process which takes about 30 seconds as opposed to waiting for someone to be doing all that. Now that’s because he has his experience of like 20 years as like an Excel jockey, but he’s now re expressing himself through. Originally he was actually building mostly in low code, now he’s using code with the help of AI because in addition to the tools, helping him build the tools help him learn how to be a better developer, how to think more like a machine. And as he was pushing the boundaries of what the low code tools would let him do in terms of complicated financial analysis, he’s like, wait, oh wait, that’s all there is to Python. Because he had learned the language and the metaphors and the way to think with the machine through using the tools. It’s like the bike with training wheels and then you take off the training wheels and like that’s sort of the journey he’s been on in a matter of months, not years. Fairly high value and sophisticated domain. There are others, I mean there are lots of examples I’m really so proud of, like the people who I get to work with. Those are like examples of like how they’re using the things most special about them and then being able to express that through software that lets them create a lot more value for their markets.

A.J. Lawrence:
These are the things that I think are going to be interesting. Now, where do you see as this advances? How that impacts business? Are you only a few out there? Is that crossover or are we a new golden age?

Ray Deck:
I’m super excited. I think there was an argument that like retail was all over in 2000 because Webvan was going to make it all the way and it wasn’t Webvan. Things change. Like one should not expect that your business is going to stand still. One shouldn’t expect that your market is going to stand still and it’s going to be affected by this technology and affected by others as well. I was recently talking to a guy who was talking about the expected declining supply of rare earths on the planet and how that’s change the way that we treat technology and also the way we treat like reclamation of hardware and that kind of business, which I thought was neat. Demographics are going to change. There’s going there. There’s a much wealthier generation that is on the rise in China and in India, younger generation is in Iran and how quickly it’s growing. So demographics are changing as well.

And the reason I’m bringing it up is that like technology is an easy thing for us to focus on because it’s in the news and it’s right next to us. But change just keeps on happening and it’s always the error that people think that today is like nothing that ever came before and that today is the same as everything that came before. It’s changing underneath us. So the question of golden age or what have you, I think it’ll be different. It will be really interesting. I think there’s a lot of money to be made. If you’re paying attention to what’s going around you in the market and you are seeing the opportunities around you and you are experimenting with those opportunities, you are in a far better position to be able to make money from those opportunities and succeed with them with a general expectation that most of your competitors probably won’t. Most are sitting on whatever they’re doing. More people are inactive than they are active. I appreciate that’s a little bit of a generic answer, but I think that the idea. Like AGI is going to make everything different is I think a bit overwrought. But that it’s not going to change anything is I think massively underplaying it. The way we live in the middle between those two things is to be aware.

A.J. Lawrence:
What would you give as the main piece of advice to be able to stay involved and to really explore what is going on?

Ray Deck:
If some were just starting today like hey, how could I go and start to create code? That I think would be meaningful. I think natural language is the most normal way to do it. And using these tools can be really remarkable for that. And I like them more than I like the things that are specifically about building software, because it keeps you in the zone of like, how is this going to create value for me? And you find yourself making something that’s going to create value for you. Or like take this information, turn it into a chart, and then it can figure out what kind of charts can be most useful for you. And then that’s using some code and that’s expressing through software. And then you start turning that loop. The job of software, the job of technology is necessarily automation. And as we think about that more, it becomes more powerful. There’s this idea called model context protocol, which is MCP, is three letters you might have heard a little bit about. And the exciting thing about it is this idea that you can take various pieces of software out there and make them tools that the AI can use on behalf of a customer. I have a Zapier MCB server. It can do things. Like I can say, let’s go create a piece of code, let’s go submit it to GitHub, let’s register it in my project management system and then send me an email with like what kind of happened here today with an end of day report. And I didn’t have to go get a particular piece of software that does all those things. They’re kind of coming together much like the World Wide Web was just made of a protocol. You can be doing the same thing with AI. And so the idea of, wait, are you going to go use AI to make a SaaS? Or are you discovering how AI can be the user of software? And then when you start thinking about that, then you’re thinking. I think usefully about how you are either on the consumer side or on the vendor side of that. Are you building with AI or can you be expressing your business in a way that AI can consume and it becomes your customer? That’s the reason why I talk about like using the chat. Because if you sort of start talking to AI as being that center of gravity, as being that decision engine, then you start to see more opportunities for how your expertise could be adding value in there. And the way it could add value in either side of that divide will hopefully fill you with inspiration as to what you can do and that allows you to start acting like a mentor.

A.J. Lawrence:
That is brilliant. And yeah, Ray, I greatly appreciate it. And if you’re out there listening to Ray kind of walk through, go check out some of the videos. Definitely State Change can really help you is if you are sort of starting to wonder how to deal with this. Do you have technical problems that you think could actually go further? Because sometimes I think it is making the problems even more difficult is actually fun if you can find a way to actually get to it. Not just bad, bad, bad cold code, as I have a tendency of doing. State Change is a great resource to kind of dive into and find other entrepreneurs who are probably dealing with issues that you’re trying to consider of how to face. And Ray is brilliant and I think you’ll learn a lot from his office hours, if not much more of his other content out there. So go check it out.

Ray, thank you. This was great. And I’ve already like trying not to sit there and write on the side of the thing without moving things. Like, I gotta capture this idea. You gave me a bunch of ideas of how to look at something. So thank you so much for coming on the show today. I really, really appreciate it.

Ray Deck:
Thank you so much, A.J. This was great.

A.J. Lawrence:
Hey everyone, thank you so much for listening. Please go check out State Change AI. Is there any place else people can go check out?

Ray Deck:
Check out YouTube. They’re starting to get serious about expressing themselves with software like we talked about. I would encourage them to check out State Change AI.

A.J. Lawrence:
All right, everyone, thank you so much for listening today. I really appreciate it. I can’t wait to come back again. Have a great day. Bye-bye everyone.